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Post by Nitemarebeast on Jan 10, 2011 20:56:49 GMT -5
and sorry bout confusion hard to explain somthing thats in your head and in books before you.
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Post by Sercee on Jan 10, 2011 21:11:01 GMT -5
No worries. If you find you're having a hard time getting it all out in an order that works, you should do your big write ups ahead of time and just copy/paste it here once you have it editted to the right order and level of clarity. Then you can take your time and get as much substance in as you can; more bang for your buck.
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Post by Nitemarebeast on Jan 10, 2011 21:25:39 GMT -5
sounds like a plan just was using this to post every thing then copy paste proper order for the forum itself
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Post by Nitemarebeast on Jan 12, 2011 22:20:36 GMT -5
Main point of this style is to work with what some belive to be the fir forces to ever exsist. Thus alot of magycks in this style tend to be more splaid out. Dipping into sevral styles of magycks instead of gravitating around a singgle one as some do. But even still summoning and invoking are still its strongest connections in arcanic ways
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Post by Derrick on Jan 17, 2011 14:59:24 GMT -5
Well this discussion is great. I'm a little disheartened to see no new articles posted I am going to step back from this discussion. Thanks for your input guys, it's been an interesting read. All I have to say is Ditto @ Sercee.
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Post by Nitemarebeast on Jan 27, 2011 12:57:47 GMT -5
((srry comps been busted)) ((will start posting soon as i know it will stay up and running)))
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Post by Nitemarebeast on Jan 27, 2011 13:06:50 GMT -5
following is a old legend i found.
in the begining there was just choas and order. Both sides clashed togther. Creating and destroying. Over time both sides realized they would never win so a truce was made. And each took there powers and broke them into three pieces. Lightning- earth- ice Lightning was the embodiment of thier furousous wills. Earth was there stuborness to win and to suceed ice was there demonoer and giving of no mercy.
After the thre were formed to help balance choas and order. choas used used the power he kept to divide them even more. Order seeing what he was doing intervined but could not stop him completly lightning split to become fire and air ice broke apart and became water earth during the fight had part of itself hardened to metal.
order looked at what choas had done and also decided that balance must be returned. its said in his attempt to fix what had happned and choas attempt to destroy it had destroyed them both. there powers are said to continue to clash because of the fighting they always endured.
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Post by Nitemarebeast on Jan 27, 2011 13:09:40 GMT -5
anyways according to what had happned choas and order both had formed new elements. each for thier own reasons. and in the end both of them trying to subvert the other cost them dearly. some say the still exist. trying to pull themselfs backtogther after what happened. others say the order and choas they both realeased is still around because of the magnitude they unleeashed. but most myths i found agree. that because of thier war the world we have is due to them.
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Post by Demonblood on Jan 27, 2011 20:02:03 GMT -5
So you propose sentience and petty squabling amongst primordial forces and that is further supplemented by the presence of things as they are being a logical derivitive of:
Chaos + Order = Lightning (Fire + Air) + Earth (+ or - Metal) + Ice (+ or - water)?
Interesting. So with your established primitive form, on the assumption that no one thing is 'first' what could have generated chaos/order that is both substantial and exclusive of all of the entities you have already proposed?
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Post by Nitemarebeast on Jan 28, 2011 22:09:22 GMT -5
i have no idea... in truth nor any legend i found speak of this first.. some say its from the gods and goddess. What i can say from my own experiance is that calling these forces can help spell work and magycks but i do cation using them "willy-nilly" for they our powerfull forces to contend with.
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Post by Derrick on Jan 29, 2011 13:41:58 GMT -5
Ah, so what your saying Nitemarebeast is that you have no idea what your getting involved with, yet have the wisdom and years to advise others "careful, it's dangerous."
That is to say that your theory is even valid, as I have already stated I find the use of nine elements a bit pretentious.
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Post by wickiwoman on Jan 29, 2011 18:14:17 GMT -5
I hardly think that is what he said Derrick. But is appears to me with how you have twisted what Nitemare has said that you are very closed minded to all of this and only wish to poke holes in something someone else believes in. It's sad really seeing we ask others to be open to our beliefs and accept us as we are, yet it is not practiced within our own religion.
Nitemare I understood what you were saying even if no one else here wants to. Again it is very interesting and thank you for the warning. It is nice to come across others that are willing to say "From my own experience this is how is has worked for me but use caution because this is not something you should just dabble in because you are dealing with something very powerful." I have many things I add disclaimers to because people just rush into things without thinking of what can come of it and I cannot on good conscious not warn them about what it is they might get themselves into. Some people might see it as a weakness but I see it as not only a strength but also how much wisdom you have in the things you practice. You appear to be someone that really tries to get all your facts before doing rather then the many people I know that only learn a little and then tries thus getting themselves and others in trouble and putting them in harm. Thank you again Nitemare.
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Post by Derrick on Jan 29, 2011 22:17:47 GMT -5
See this is why I didn't post my feelings sooner.
I am open minded, I just expect humility from people. Nitemare beast speaks like he/she knows a great deal about things he/she talks about. However when asked to back it up or elaborate Nitemare beast is unable to.
It's a flaw I felt needed poking.
What he's dealing with is not even dangerous. At best it's lightly hazardous. The standard astral journeying experience is more dangerous then messing around with a list of elements.
I'd also like to say that while yes, I am an Admin here. I am still a person. I disagree with what people say and I have a right to voice my opinion.
Riddle me this Wicki Woman.
It is commonly believed that when someone preforms a spell that they are "asking" the gods or goddess to carry out their wish for them.
If that's true and all the power lies in the hands of the immortals, then why are spell ingredients so important? If all spells are just asking for a favor then shouldn't prayers be sufficient? Or is it that the true power lies within, and that change can be made from the practitioners actions. That would seem to suggest that the dieties are less involved then some may think. Yet how can the gods not be involved? They could stop your spell if they disagree with it, they are gods and goddesses.
See what I did there? It's called going against the norm and challenging convention. It promotes debate and growth in understanding.
Although some may call it poking holes.
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Post by Nitemarebeast on Jan 30, 2011 20:36:38 GMT -5
magycks were gven to use by them long ago.. and by many a myth bad things happen to those who forget who gave us this power... And from what i learned of myth and from what i have seen to dabble with no intent or intent not to follow through leads to disaster. And anything can be deadly yes if used improperly... But the nine to some like me and a few others are the fundemental magyckal forces of everything... long story short the threads we choose to be a harp must be plucked tenderly and with care for to play the wrong note can ripple and do untold things to those we love and hate.
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Post by Nitemarebeast on Jan 30, 2011 20:40:53 GMT -5
And in my honest sense of self i would rather cation care weather one is new or old to these arts. For either of newborn fool or one who is a fool and belives themselfs unable of screwing up due to practice of decades should still head it. magyck is more then an idle toy but a force that is niether good nor evil and the forces that gave it to us im sure can just as easily strip it from us.
Morrigon goodess of death.. spurned by immortal took his powers killed him Nother immortal spurned her killed his family and made it so for all enternity the ghosts would haunt him.... If i am a fool due to caution then give me my cap of the dunce. i would rather walk a path with each step measured then dash ahead even in the sunnest of weathers.
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Post by Demonblood on Jan 30, 2011 21:36:29 GMT -5
@ Wikiwoman:
"wish to poke holes in something someone else believes in. It's sad really seeing we ask others to be open to our beliefs and accept us as we are, yet it is not practiced within our own religion."
Yes, that's exactly what we're doing. I can speak for Derrick also in this instance but we are not here to blindly accept what other people may or may not believe.
Understanding comes from debate and poking holes in things this way illuminates the areas that either do not or cannot make sense can be made conclusive and if sense can be made, an extended response is all that is needed.
Now to my personal opinion. I am open minded, you can believe that what you will. I make no reservations on my part if other peoples beliefs are valid, if something makes little sense, isn't explained suitably or seems outright silly. I will demand explanation and clarification and whether or not I do it aggressively does not make me 'closed-minded'. It gives me a strength of mind you over look.
Before you run to the weak willed, minus defense of 'you're closed minded', consider what I've just said and realise that blind faith is where the closed minded reside, are you amongst them? No one told Nightmarebeast he was wrong, stupid to believe or otherwise fallible. I just wanted more info.
Now, @nightmarebeast:
"bad things happen to those who forget who gave us this power"
What if no-one gave us any 'power'. What if we were just here, the forces were just there and people discovered a way to harness it?
Also, if the forces that gave it to us are neutral, why do they care how we use it?
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Post by wickiwoman on Jan 31, 2011 5:08:16 GMT -5
First off Demon wasn't even talking to you or was I saying that your replys could be taken out of the context you intended. Your approach to all of this has been better then some.
When I first joined here the first thing Derrick said to me was I love people being blunt and if I get out of line then tell me. Well I was nice about it the first few times trying to explain to him how his comments can be taken out of context and be very misinterpreted. But rather then be open to that he continued so I came out and bluntly put it as not only myself has seen his posts to be closed minded but other members and people that I have shared the site with. It is due to his comments in this thread alone that have turned people I was excited to share this forum with away from joining because the admin "Says he is open to sharing and learning other people views yet turns around and bashes someone willing to share something outside of his comfort zone" as one friend put it. So I am not the only one seeing it, but clearly I am the only member (not for long due to I can no longer support the views and misrepresentations the forum has presented) that has the balls enough to say anything to the admin. Again I pointed out at first how this can be taken and not how he might have meant it to be taken.
Blindly accepting other people's beliefs and blindly accepting people's beliefs, blindly practicing them at the same time are two different things (to me). I accept that other people have the right to believe and practice as they wish as long and no harm comes from it. No one has the right to say one faith is more right then another, or that people should not believe in something. I have every right to be pagan and you have every right to be christian or catholic or mormon or buddhist or what ever it is you want to believe in that is your right. Everyone has the right to stand up and say "I believe in this". That is good for you and I am glad it is working for you but this is how I see it and we can be fine with that. As long as no one is getting hurt. This belief in 9 elements is not hurting anyone so I say again to each his own.
Understanding people and being open to what they are trying to explain what they believe in and poking holes in what people believe in are again two different things (to me). Clarification is a great thing to seek when you don't understand something. I think it is great to gain my knowledge on something you don't know or don't understand, but ask that don't just say you are wrong and this is why I say you are wrong so prove me wrong. That screams "My way of thinking it the only right way because I don't understand your way of thinking nor do I want to unless you do something amazing to prove I am wrong and even then I may never be open to your way of thinking" Seen way too many bible bashers come at me with this line. So what he has to share is out there to you and you don't understand it. He has tried to explain it and you still don't understand it, that does not make it any less valid. I don't understand math but it is still out there and widely accepted even blindly by people does that mean that I go around saying well since my mind doesn't get it I am going to poke at it and make an ass of myself by telling people that can't explain it so my brain gets they are wrong. No I understand that they are getting, learning, and understanding something I never will and I am okay with that because guess what...it doesn't hurt me or anyone else.
Here is the thing about faith too...it is blind. You can't see it but it is there. I believe in things people can't see and sometimes is hard to explain so others can grasp it but I still believe in it due to my faith in it. That is the big thing about religion it is faith in something we can't really see and can never be fully grasped. We do a lot blindly without even knowing it. We like others blindly because they have given us reason to hate them. Some hate others blindly because they don't have a reason to like them.
Even in some sciences like psychology they can't not explain why certain therapy works but it just does for some people. Even if we study it over and over again there is no way to come back and say "This is why PTSD happens and this is how to cure it" or "This is why all school shootings happen" because there is no way right now that they can do that. It is because everyone is different. Our brains react so differently to things and understand things in different ways. But we try to treat it or understand it in a blind sense. Learning to try and understand someones faith, point of view, reality and so on can be hard, accepting that it is real for them is just as hard.
Being open minded (to me) (notice how I am saying that is my point of view so not only to show you this is how I understand it but to not impose my views on you or to say this is how you may have intended it) is being able to look at all sides of the story, hear all sides of the story and still be able to say I understand it to be this way but it is possible that it can be seen, taken, believed, lived another way. It is the ability to say "dude I don't get it and I want to understand" and even after they try to explain it as best they can being able to say "I still don't see it or understand but what ever works for you is cool and I am still open to more info on the subject if you have it". To not sit their and poke holes in what people believe in because honestly I personally can poke holes in a lot of shit including every religion I have come across even my own. But I don't because I not only wish to accept people in their beliefs but I wish to be open to all sides of the story.
The fact that I get so much back lash on stating "This is how it can be taken" and "This is how I am seeing it" shows me that you are not very open to my side of the story. This is how I am seeing it and again I have been very open to you saying that is not what I meant and perhaps to rephrase what you said so that perhaps it can be taken another way.
As for your questions Derrick I could waist my breath and answer those questions you posed in possibly 5 different ways but the way you presented them to me tells me you don't really want to hear what I have to say on this subject or any in the future. So I wont waist my time on it. You already have the answers you are willing to accept in your mind and you continue to believe them and question them as you see fit. I am fine with that and accept you have the right to do just that. I am done with your group and grateful that I got to see what you are about before I got too involved with this forum. I am also grateful to make friends in all of this and learn new things from the people willing to share their point of view with me knowing they can do so without being afraid of me being closed off to what they have to say. To those people yes I will be starting my own forum as suggested to me. If you would like to join please send me your email so I can send you the link as soon as I have it put together.
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Post by Demonblood on Jan 31, 2011 6:51:23 GMT -5
@ Wickiwoman:
"But rather then be open to that he continued so I came out and bluntly put it as not only myself has seen his posts to be closed minded."
"So what he has to share is out there to you and you don't understand it. He has tried to explain it and you still don't understand it, that does not make it any less valid.
Fair enough.
"but clearly I am the only member (not for long due to I can no longer support the views and misrepresentations the forum has presented) that has the balls enough to say anything to the admin."
Which is good. I've been banned from many forums for doing that.
"So what he has to share is out there to you and you don't understand it. He has tried to explain it and you still don't understand it, that does not make it any less valid."
Which begets more questioning.
"I don't understand math but it is still out there and widely accepted even blindly by people does that mean that I go around saying well since my mind doesn't get it I am going to poke at it and make an ass of myself by telling people that can't explain it so my brain gets they are wrong."
The maths is there for you to try and understand and question whenever you so choose. Whether you find yourself understanding it or not is irrelevent. Maybe poking holes in it would be a handy exercise.
When someone tells you they've been haunted by a ghost, do you automically call the ghost busters or consider that their story could be bull? Maybe it could be someone else having fun at their expense, good old common symptoms that are no more uncommon breathing.
Poking holes, cynicism, prudent points of view.
If my quest for knowledge and relentlessly questioning to why's instead of just taking people at their word, well that would be boring and then I would leave that conversation with no true insight into anything.
Also, you call that 'back lash'? wow, how tame. This is why I lurk don't post much.
And if that is the cost of being 'open minded' ... I don't want it.
Good luck with your forum. I hope it provides what you're looking for.
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Post by Derrick on Jan 31, 2011 19:10:02 GMT -5
Wicki woman, I don't argue Nitemare beast's point of views because I don't understand them. I argue them because I think they are poorly developed and a load of bull. Please be aware that in early parts of this thread, I was doing my best to be polite and I asked Nitemare Beast to "please post more information so that we may further develop this thread." That was not from a lack of understanding. I was hoping to find something tangible in the dust. You should tell your friend, the one who made the comment on "out of his comfort zone" to come have a discussion with me. The fields of magick I study far surpass that of an average Wiccan or practitioner. They do spells, some spells and a few rituals. I've delved into summoning, working with goetic demons, plant spirits, feeder demons, metaphysics, many hours of astral journey with more then one occasion having scuffles. I used to play with lists of elements when I started learning magick. Now I work with spirits who have existed and studying magick for millennium to unravel energy and it's secrets. Outside my comfort zone, you make me laugh. I would also like to point out that no one here has been banned, no posts edited. I've been the victim of that myself and no matter what you say or how angry your posts get, I won't. And in my honest sense of self i would rather cation care weather one is new or old to these arts. For either of newborn fool or one who is a fool and belives themselfs unable of screwing up due to practice of decades should still head it. magyck is more then an idle toy but a force that is niether good nor evil and the forces that gave it to us im sure can just as easily strip it from us. Morrigon goodess of death.. spurned by immortal took his powers killed him Nother immortal spurned her killed his family and made it so for all enternity the ghosts would haunt him.... If i am a fool due to caution then give me my cap of the dunce. i would rather walk a path with each step measured then dash ahead even in the sunnest of weathers. Nitemare beast, your talking like a idiot. You know, the ones who are on forums and say things like "ye, thee, thou, etc etc" Your living in the modern era don't write your posts like your some ancient master wearing a cloak and typing in some temple somewhere. It's pretentious and infuriating since I have strong inclines that you are most likely very young and new to magick.
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Post by Firestar on Jan 31, 2011 20:32:14 GMT -5
Hey! This is Wicki's GF. Was told I was called out and had something to reply to. I find you really funny Drrick. Really I laughed at this last post at least 10 minutes. So you are one of THOSE pagans. The ones that think you are all high and mightly and know more about paganism then others because you...
"The fields of magick I study far surpass that of an average Wiccan or practitioner. I've delved into summoning, working with goetic demons, plant spirits, feeder demons, metaphysics, many hours of astral journey with more then one occasion having scuffles."
You clearly have very little knowledge about what the average pagan (Not Wiccan) practices and knows. So yes I stand by my quote that you hardly are open to things outside your "Holier then thou" comfort zone. I bet you are still in your early 20's too. Your act like a child told they are in charge and think they are better then the others because they have a small amount of "power". Get over yourself man and learn to be more open because you aren't You say one thing and clearly practice another. As for Wicki's "angry" posts that made me laugh more. You haven't seen angry, she has been kind and mild compared to how I think she should be. Man you are a whoot. Pray you never make this girl mad. So bring it on mister...you wanted me here to have a "discussion"...here I am discuss. This has to be good.
Oh yeah hi Wicki!!! and hi to all our friends that have in the past and will no doubt be coming here to look in again.
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