Nine element Invocation

[Derrick]

What firestar.

Yeah, I no damn straight how my post sounded. I was writing, and inside I felt bad because it's a tad hypocritical of me since way back when I too beat down "holier then thou" individuals as well.

I am extremely open.

You guys keep saying I should open up, and lighten up. No. I refuse to be another one of those all accepting "of love and light" "white lighter" bullshitters.

I am me, and I accept all paths and faiths. I have to bias against creed, race, sexual orientation etc. I'm just trying to keep the bar on magickal studies from dragging on the fucking ground.

I mean, have you seen most pagan/spiritual sites???!? If I have to read about rainbow children one more fucking time my heads going to explode. I mean I started this whole forum as a way of working in some decent material into a website where it could be viewed by others and perhaps promote thought.

Way back, years ago now I was on a pagan forum. It was my first forum and I went onto just as I started getting into paganism. A few other level headed people saw that I too was level headed and more or less took me under their wing. It's only now that I look at others who were my age and see what dribble it is that they are being spoon fed.

I mean, glamour spells, anti-swine flu spells, and the classic boat load of bullshit, love spells.

I'm trying to promote learning. The problem is I can only handle fluff for so long before I have to vent my frustrations.

AS MENTIONED ABOVE when I feel someone is shaky or doesn't know their material well enough to explain it, I question if they should be teaching it. While I disagree with the nine element theory that's been alluded to above, I'm not here to to personally attack Nitemare beast.

I have issues with him/her but it's because she/he needs to be more humble.

haha, funny that I mention humility eh?

I had my flame outs, and I got put in my place about things like whether or not I had the right to claim the title of "shaman."

I want intelligent discussion and a reasonable amount of understanding when someone acts like they know what they are talking about.

I will not censor any of you, and I won't censor myself.



Also Hi to friends of Firestar and Wickiwoman. Hate me if you will but I refuse to let the intelligent discussion and debate on the theories and fundamentals of magick die on my watch.

I encourage you all to speak your peace on this subject as well.

[makbawehuh]

I am way too tired to read every detail of this and be able to put it together into something that makes sense in my head, but it looks like we have an awesome, heated discussion going! I approve wholeheartedly. A little rage makes my day so much the brighter.

Or was that coffee?

I forget.

Either way. After reading what I read of Nitemare's posts, I have to say I'm more or less in agreement with Derrick and Demonblood here; I am not trying to diss Nitemare's faith, so much as... Really, reiterate that it sounds more like something pulled out of a Final Fantasy Holy/Dark elemental system. Well, and a little bit of a Discordian ripoff, which I really can't bitch about- We do like to keep things kopyleft, after all. I think there's some good ideas in what Nitemare was saying, but that it's something that perhaps needs some fleshing out and some work, and much, much more thought.

The nice thing is that in a place like this, you can bring in your ideas, have them criticized openly, if you dare, and then take the (often valid, and sometimes not) points away as things to think about and work out in your workings. Which is way the hell cool. Have I ever mentioned that I love the internets? I do. I love the internets. Free forum for ideas, good, bad, and otherwise, and shit.

*makes some tea*

I mean, hell, if a nine element system pulled out of Final Fantasy works for you, I'm not gonna sit here and say you can't use it. I have an eleven element system I worked up for my game world, and happened to discover it worked out very well in my magical practices- Far better, in fact, than any traditional system I know of. It's not like I've got too much room to throw stones... I just put a shitload of thought into mine, though, so I guess that's where I can throw some stones. Except that I'm tired and undercaffienated and really don't have the wits to.

Just before you use the system, make sure it's thought out and doesn't conflict internally to you. Personally, I couldn't use that system... When I think of element, I think of ....Primal, moving forces of the universe that intertwine and shape the reality we see. Considering how Nitemare's system is set up, I think it would clash heavily with my views on what those primal, moving forces are and how they work, and how they're related to one another.

I should go to bed and pet the kitty, now.

[Derrick]

see, that's two people who think it's from a fantasy video game.



On another note. Not everything I've thought out and presented to people has been accepted, and after further thought I scraped it.

I was trying to find a way to visually represent different forms of energy based on their interaction with other forms of energy. Basically you know the diagrams of how elements are bonded to other elements to demonstrate compounds? ya that, but with energy.

It failed miserably since really it has no base, and the thought of being able to classify, and standardize different...

you know I'm not even going to continue with that train of thought, cause it's madness.

"no this is Sparta!"

ha, I said it first.

[Firestar]

So in short you wish us to love/hate the walking talking hypocritical ass you are. Okay you said it I didn’t.

You are you...you accept all paths (I call HUGE bullshit on this because you can't even practice this acceptance with your words) yet you hate people that express it in a positive enlightening “this changed my life and I wish to share it with the world” way (your so called fluff). Well man up and grow up. Learn to ignore what you dislike about the mainstream pagans and get over it. Truth is a lot of people are drawn to kind people that can say nice shit...wow imagine that. You know that saying you attract more with sugar then with vinegar. Once getting a look into what pagans are all about they can learn that there is more then fluff to the religion (and trust me every religion has this so stop your bashing you are just making all pagans look bad. It is people like you that people remember the most and walk away believing all of those damn myths that other pagans are trying to set straight).

You say you promote learning in this forum but it is only on your terms (mister high and mighty here had to pre-approve things before it got posted in it proper place on the forum, and it is still stated that way in his rules. Some one has control issues) and when people share something outside of your box you pick and poke and belittle them…oh yeah I am learning.

And this is my favorite part "I have to bias against creed, race, sexual orientation etc." So you admit you are an ass to certain people just because of their sex, race, and creed. Man am I glad Wicki left here it would have made her way upset to know she was in a group ran by a guy that is so closed minded to someone due to something like that. I honestly feel sorry for you and the little box you have made for yourself to live in. And don’t give me everyone does…no not everyone and I know this by personal experience

“I'm just trying to keep the bar on magickal studies from dragging on the fucking ground.” Well you are doing a bang up job dragging it down all by yourself...oh I am sorry you meant you wanted to raise it up...yeah not what you are achieving here but you are all holier then the rest of us here and know what you are doing better then the average pagan...sorry Wiccan.

“I want intelligent discussion and a reasonable amount of understanding when someone acts like they know what they are talking about.” Me too...but you are not displaying that in anyway but disregarding something because you don't "understand" it.

Honestly what this is all coming to is if it looks like bullying and sounds like bullying then well it is. You have been bullying Nitemare from the get go here and made it worse with your "I know this this and this" pissing contest you tried to start. Yeah well I am a 4th gen pagan and a college grad but you don't see me going "See see I know all this shit so I better and clearly know more then you" No because guess what… first off I am not that immature or insecure about things that I have to shove what I know and done down people throats as a way to win an “discussion”….and there are things in this world I don't know about and same goes for you kid. Difference is I can show understanding, be open minded, and if I still don't like it I can move on because it didn't work for me but it did work for him. You just displayed that you close up and slowly bully someone until you have your way.

GO NITEMARE! Love ya man. Keep rocking that boat and keep your head held high. People like Drrick come and go but what they remember the most is you stood your ground.

[Nitemarebeast]

if i remeber theres only one rule of magyck i need to say right about now. is it not state in most books and stroeis from father to son, mother to daughter magyck is a force that has thousands of ways to use it? that all it takes is willpower and the will to wont the change the will to use the power for evil or good?
Then well i ask you this?
celtics, norse, indians, british witches of ye old faiths, Celestrial nights of india, candles magyck of japan?
each is different in the means and yet each is just as strong ass the other. I must say derrick this rule you have forgot.

[Ghosthaunter]

okay than, time to lose my opinion here. It's getting kinda of a mess here

ok, first reaction:
quote firestar: Man am I glad Wicki left here it would have made...

wicki left??

second, magick can be practiced in all diferents ways. A LOT different ways. Like you said nitemare,
quote Nitemarebeast
celtics, norse, indians, british witches of ye old faiths, Celestrial nights of india, candles magyck of japan?

All these kinds of techniques are just all diferent ways of practicing magick. It's like having 30 different words for the same object. Some direct them to god /godesses, others (like here) elements, others (like me) direct energy, than you got candle magick, Reiki energy, etc...

like i once said, 'It's not how you practice magick, it's the thought behind it that counts.'

It is nice and inspiring to see different techniques, learning more.

Than, the closed-mind problem.

First of all, the whole problem started with derrick saying this

quote Derrick
Ah, so what your saying Nitemarebeast is that you have no idea what your getting involved with, yet have the wisdom and years to advise others "careful, it's dangerous."

That is to say that your theory is even valid, as I have already stated I find the use of nine elements a bit pretentious.
/quote

But what Nitemare wanted to say is that he didn't have any idea about the chaos-order thing (correct me if i'm wrong with this) and their power and what created them. And indeed, it is true that magick shouldn't be used to harm other people, as this only makes things worse.

My conclusion, it's like if you would critisize a book. You have to read the book twice, or even three times to understand the auther's point of view, and after that, you put the book in question, you don't put out conclusions of it.

So, i hope this was a misunderstanding.

Than, Derrick, here you say 'I am open minded, I just expect humility from people. 'Nitemare beast speaks like he/she knows a great deal about things he/she talks about. However when asked to back it up or elaborate Nitemare beast is unable to.'

back it up? c'mon man, like you can say how the universe was created. It's like a scientist saying how the rules of physics work, but than you putting it all in question by saying 'you don't know how it was created, so i don't believe it'. Bad attitude.

quote Demonblood '"wish to poke holes in something someone else believes in. It's sad really seeing we ask others to be open to our beliefs and accept us as we are, yet it is not practiced within our own religion."

Yes, that's exactly what we're doing. I can speak for Derrick also in this instance but we are not here to blindly accept what other people may or may not believe.'

Very well said here. you have to remember that it is necesary to critize things, put it in question. Else you can't be open-minded. If open-minded is (like Wicki said) trying to see all the side of the story, it is also necesary to give your opinion about that.

BUT

is someone open-minded if he doesn't want to accept that someone who he/she personally thinks isn't open minded while that person says he is? I mean, you are all saying you have to look closer to it and try to understand the whole thing, but that's not really something you're doing with Derrick either.

On the other hand, Derrick, if that nine-element system works for someone, while you think of it that it is the biggest bullshit you've seen in your life, just let it be than, instead of breaking it down and saying it is stupid. You can't except everything to be on a high level. See it as a stepping stone. it can only lead to further development.

meh i'm tired of this, took me long enough to write this. If i can give one good advice, if you see something you really don't like, just straight ignore it, let it be. It's just an opinion, it won't kill ya.

than, at last, please read everything twice or even three times. This will avoid confusion and if you still dun understand it, ask questions.

[Nitemarebeast]

Ghosthunter i thank you. Very direct and to the point but i have decided to most likely quit posting for the time being.
In truth the thing about this that hurts most is this system does work for me and a few friends of mine quite well.
And i learned most of the 9 elements from my family, something that's been within my family for years.
With all that's happened. i now know why some systems of magyck have certain rules limiting how many you can show or teach this art to. I made a mistake in trying to post a style i learned and can use.
Also about dark and light? 14Th and 15Th century there are myths of dragons MADE OF LIGHT AND SHADOWS RAMPAGING AND DESTROYING
the ideas of light and dark style magycks have been around longer then any final fantasy game... and the fact you would directly link it to that makes me wonder exactly what way you use magic...

[Ghosthaunter]

yeah, that indeed is a good question. Who is based on who? who was first, the chicken or the egg. Same story.

[Derrick]

The to should have been a no. Opps, that makes me look bad.

[Derrick]

If I'm so terrible, power hungry and have control issues.

Why did I change the posting standards so that everyone can post any material they want. I realized with the input of Demonblood that having me look over posts was off putting, and I changed it. If it's not changed in the rules, I'm sorry I thought I modified that section of the rules to reflect the new way of doing things.

If I'm so closed minded why didn't I snap at Nitemare beast about his servitor post? As part of my path I dislike the use of such things finding them an issue of moral contention.

As stated above, I meant to say I have NO bias on creeds, gender or sexual orientation as I myself am a homosexual. It was a typo.

You want to know something very honest. When I started this forum, I wanted it to be huge. I wanted tonnes of members and lots of daily posting. So I walked on egg shells around members. Formed my posts in the form of a question, because asking and not telling is more polite. I had big dreams of being an admin on a major pagan forum.

Then I looked at myself, and saw how power hungry that was. I realized the only reason I wasn't sharing my opinion is because it would clash with others, and drive them away.

I found some humility within myself and realized what I was doing. So I posted on Nitemare beasts thread, and started this whole discussion. Not because I'm so power hungry and I have a higher then thou opinion of everything.

because I had to be honest to myself and what I think is more important. Intelligent debate over winning the popularity contest.

Thanks for the discussion all, since most of you have said your not going to reply or that you've left then I say goodbye.

Best of luck, in sincerity.

-Derrick.

[Ghosthaunter]

yeah, it's sad they left because of an opinion.

btw, you're weak that you let your power-hunger take control over your actions and reactions look at me, i keep hiding myself after the fact that i want to learn but instead I want to gather as much information so i can get powerfuller... i think i've shouldn't have said that

oh and a hint if you want to be a mod of a giant paganforum, than watch out with how you write your opinions. I can say to someone 'What for bullshit are you saying here??!!?? are you stupid or what? how the hell did you come to believe THAT!!??!!'
or you can say 'I don't fully agree with that thought, so could you please explain how ... etc.'

the first way of saying makes people... kinda leave.

[Derrick]

I did both haha.

I did the "please explain."

but for the wrong reasons.

so I switched to "bitch you crazy."

[Firestar]

Derrick sounds like a Freudian slip to me on your typo and the "forgetting" to change your posting rules. Perhaps you should see someone about that.

[Demonblood]

As the newest member you would be the only one here not aware that the rules were changed Re: posting. A PM was sent to all members at the time. Whilst it is not as satisfactory as an ammendment to the rules page, that ammendment was not a very high priority because of the member base and contributions were well documented.

Such ammendments have their time and place as the forum is undergoing a change of set up.

So you've known Derrick for years and well enough to know what would constitute a freudian slip from him? Aren't you a lucky fellow. As for your comments on assuming Derricks age, well you've thrown yourself into the same categorium because you are attempting to continue a fight that was for all intents and purposes concluded.

The Repository thanks you for your contribution to the 'Nine element Invocation' and wishes you a nice day.

[Firestar]

It's called a reply...I replied with my opinion to his reply to what I said. Just like you did...replied to me thus continuing the conversation. Open your eyes I am not the only one replying to this so maybe you shouldn't be singleing me out as the only one replying when "intents and purposes concluded" I never saw they were concluded. People are still talking about it including yourself.

You say they was fighting words when it was more of a expert observation to his slips and advise that perhaps he might wish to talk about this to a local professional. But perhaps this is a prime example of what Wicki has been saying all along here...that things might be taken the wrong way.

And as I see it from the introduction page and since Wicki (Who has been a member for about a month) never got this all member message and you have had more new members since maybe you should think about your new members rather then confuse them or turn them off with your list of rules. I know it is one reason I didn't join (only here because Derrick wanted a "discussion" with me) not the main reason but still something that has turned people off from this forum.

Again I am just replying because you are talking to me so it logically calls for a response and continuing the conversation. Another sign that a conclusion has not been reached.

[Derrick]

Well I'm sorry about the mass PM's not getting to her.

Also, I modified the "How to post" guide to reflect the changes that allowed members to post freely, and I forgot to modify the "Mission Statement" post. I had forgetten entirely that the mission statement post included any reference to how to post, since I had a "how to post" thread already.

I was going to check to see if Wicki woman got the message, since I can see that I sent out the mass PM on the January 1st 2011. Turns out she deleted her account so I can't see when she joined and confirm if she got it.

Also there is a preference setting that allows a member to receive mass PMs, this setting may have been by default turned off.

If it makes you feel better I've since modified the mission statement to reflect how any member can now post to any of the boards.